Bolt On E-Bike Motors Explained | E-Bike Fundamentals

Bolt On E-Bike Motors Explained | E-Bike Fundamentals


– One of the most
frequently commented upon issues on E-Bikes is the cost involved. So today let’s have a look at some of the alternative ways of converting your mountain bike into an E-Bike by way of after market, mid drive motors. (techno lighting sound effects) Now the bikes we ride here at EMBN are incredibly sophisticated systems, the fully integrated
motor battery and chassis have been created not just out of the best design and best materials, they’re very efficient, and they also use the best E-Bike geometry finishing and componentry. Like I said, they’re very much a system rather than a collection of parts. And they’re also very dynamic in the way the power’s transferred via torque sensors. However the bikes we ride don’t actually come cheap, but there are alternative ways to avoid that significant cost involved in buying that mountain bike. And that is by converting your existing mountain bike into an E-Bike by way of these retrofit mid drive motors which I mentioned earlier. So what do they look like? Here is a Paradox unit. This comes from Greece. As you can see, it’s pretty dinky. Pretty small. Behind me I’ve got a selection of others, this is a Bafang motor which is bolted to a downward bike and we’ll talk about how that power is transferred there later. And over here is a Lift MTB motor which comes from France. It’s a little company in Northern France. And that obviously controls the leads which power that. (upbeat techno) Now one of the first things you need to be aware of with these retrofit kits is they’re not all peddle assists. A lot of them are actually
throttle operated, which means they’re not limited in the speeds they can do. However there are some kits, such as the Bafang, which you can switch between throttle assist and peddle assist. So that’s quite a neat system. But I’ll go into that
a little bit later on. (upbeat techno) So why are we talking
about mid drive motors, not hub drives? Well there’s lots of excellent hub drives out there, both front and rear wheel drive, and they came in a vast
array of power outputs. And when it comes to peddling fire roads, or smooth single track or commuting, they’re very very good at doing that job. However the strength of a mid drive motor is that the power to the rear wheel is controlled by the same gears, the chain and through the pedals, which means the ratios are far more suited to off road use than the hub drive, which has got just a single gear ratio, which means that on
the steeper hill climbs they’re not quite as
good as that mid drive with that range of gears. The other thing with the hub drive is that because all the weight is located in the middle of that wheel, all the impacts are going to go through the rider, whereas the mid drive unit is centrally placed, which means the weight is, not only is there a low center of gravity, but the weight is distributed more evenly so that there’s a good balance of the whole chassis and
the rider on the bike. (upbeat techno) Yes! So how much do they cost? That’s big question. Now for say a 250 watt motor, which is quite a low powered motor, about £500 but remember you’ve got the cost of the battery
to go on top of that. Plus remember there’s
the cost of your bike. Now as you go up in power, they do become quite expensive so you can spend about €3000 for a really powerful motor but remember, the more powerful the motor the more weight because less range. But they still are a really good option for many people as a starter because you can buy, say, a hard tiller new or
second hand hard tiller for about £600. By the time you fit an after market kit you’ve got a dream bike for about £1600. On the other hand you can choose like my mate has done and he has bought a
second hand downhill bike. This cost him £900 off eBay, which is an incredible set of forks, a great chassis, and he’s bought his
Bafang motor from China, that’s £200, and he’s got some batteries
he bought himself, with his own battery management system. So you’re looking at £1500
for a complete biker, and it’s a really really
good uplift option. What though if you were
to have a new bike, what if you want to have a new bike with a custom kit? Well there’s lots of good bikes out there which you can buy, such as the Vita Sonax, £1700, and you know by the time
you bolt the kit on, that probably takes us up to £2700, I’m thinking well there’s this really good custom E-Bikes, such as the Haibike or the Canyon Spectral on the market for £2900. But I think if you’ve got £600, and you want to convert your existing mountain bike then, I think a mid drive kit
is a good way to go. (upbeat techno) Fitting, yes. That is obviously a crucial question. And the answer is yes and no. It all depends on the motor you’re using, and the type of battery you’re gonna have with that motor. And it honestly depends on whether you’re going to be using a hardtail or a full
suspension mountain bike. But the detail involved here is a lot of these after market motors not just through the bottom bracket, and you do have to have
a 68 to 73 bottom bracket for these motors to fit. (upbeat techno) Yes, where does the battery go? Well if you’ve got a hardtail, you’re very lucky that can be bolted onto the inside of the downtube and it’s actually quite a neat system. However, if you’ve got
a full suspension bike, most of the time you’re gonna be carrying the battery rams in a backpack and they vary in weight
from brand to brand, but you’re looking at 3 kilos. However, my mate here has got his system and he carries his
battery in his backpack. This is one of his packs. That is about six miles. But he usually carries about three of those on a big ride. (upbeat techno) In the battery goes. You zip her up. So I’m not really very
experienced at this, but I do know that you
put your backpack on. Obviously you’ve got your helmet on. So then the power lead connects to this power lead. So there you go, and the bike is actually now ready to go. It’s got pedal assist, remember on this Bafang motor, and also throttle assist. So I’m thinking that if
I press that throttle, (laughs) Oh my God. Off you go. So I think you can see, I’ve given a demonstration there of how these bikes work. You can actually configure how much output comes from the motor by way of software. Now Spoons’ bike here, he’s got a system where
it’s 20% pedal assist and 50% throttle assist. So if you’re pedaling up the hill and need pedal assist, and you want to turn, you just simply go to throttle, which is 50%. That overrides your pedal assist. You might as well not pedal. And if you want to change that, well you can do that back at home, unless you’ve got a display on the bike here. This system over here, the Lift MTB, as you can see it’s got a really neat display on the handle bar. Together with your throttle, with the amount of battery on there. And yeah you can control the amount of output through the motor simply by changing that on the handlebar. (upbeat techno) Yes, weight is really important. And don’t expect to see many of these after market motors coming
in under the 3 kilo mark. And remember the more power, the more weight and the less range, etc., etc. However this motor here, which is this beautifully made Paradox Hermes from Greece, look at it, it’s so dinky, it’s so well made. That comes in, remember there’s all the parts as well, the chain wheel there, and the leads, and the fitting, comes in about 2.6 kilos, so how does it compare to say, a Shimano, or a Brose or a Bosch. Well this is the very latest Brose motor, Brose Mag S, actually because there’s a cover on there, which means the motor is actually a lot smaller than that, and that comes in about 2.5 kilos. Now when it comes to the weight and the power and the torque of each of these after market motors. Later on in this video, I’m going to be going
through some of the figures of each of these systems. (upbeat techno) I think it all comes down to the amount of power you put through that transmission. If you’ve got a very powerful motor, then something’s going to chew up your transmission. You also want to be very careful with the chain line. Now some mid drive after market bikes haven’t got a very good chain line which obviously can put a lot of stress on your chain and gears. And when it comes to waterproof-ness, you need to be very
careful in the fine print of some of these motors. Some of them say they’re waterproof, some are water resistant, but again it comes down to the way you use them, how you use them, and how much power is
on each of the motor. (upbeat techno) Yeah so this is where it probably gets a little bit messy. Now as I mentioned earlier, a lot of the after market, mid drive bikes are 250 to 500 watts, there are ones which are more, 750, 1500, as I mentioned at that point they do tend to cook the transmission on the bike, but not only that, you need to be careful with the battery involved with the bike. Now you need to be very careful. Now Spoons here, who’s got this bike, has got a lithium-polymer battery. And with a battery management system. Now you need to be extremely, extremely careful when it comes to batteries on these
after market mid drives. Because you really need to know what you’re doing, and be aware of the dangers
involved in charging, of mixing and matching these batteries. Now when it comes to things such as the fitting, now as you can see this Lift MTB motor here has got a pretty
good ground clearance. This is where the ground clearance would normally be, between the bottom of the
chaining and the floor, you see it’s neatly tucked out of the way there. All of this depends on what frame design you’ve got. What you’re trying to avoid is having something that’s low down, that’s just going to
be catching the floor. Now on the other hand, Spoons’ bike over here has got probably one of the neatest built on kicks I’ve seen on a bike. But still you can see that that motor is significantly lower than the chain line. Which is going to come into contact with rocks and roots on the trail. At the same time we need to put this all in a context, obviously the bottom bracket height in the first place is really important. Like I see the bottom bracket height on this 224 is actually quite high, I’m guessing it’s in the 360-370 area. So relative to maybe
the bikes that we ride, about 350 millimeter
on the bottom bracket, then you know it’s
actually probably alright. (upbeat techno) Yeah you need to ask yourself do you actually need more power on your E-Bike? Now there’s a fantastic quote by Matia, who owns Lift MTB in France, who make these after market models. They’ve actually got an incredible website you’ve got all the answers when it comes to after market mid drive bikes. Just check that out. But his quote, he says that: Says it all. (upbeat techno) Right let’s have a look then at what after market kits are available to bolt onto your bike. Starting off with the Bafang. The after market kits come in the BBS01, the BBS02 which is fitted
to Spoons’ bike over there, and the BBSHD. Now when it comes to the power outputs, they are from 250 up to 1000 watt motors, and the torque, from 80 Newton meters
up to 160 Newton meters on the top end motor. As I mentioned earlier, they’re both pedal assist and throttle assist. And the weight of the motor from 4.8 to 5.2 kilograms. So not light, but as I said they give you that pedal assist which is a really good option, and yeah definitely one to check out. Now the prices on the
Bafangs start around £600. At the same time, this is the French made Lift MTB. These start at about €999. So when it comes to the power outputs of the Lift MTB, remember this is a throttle only unit. The watts is 450 watts
nominal to 750 watts max. And Newton meters is
80 to 90 Newton meters, at the rear wheel. It’s a pretty light system, 3.2 kilograms. Obviously there’s the
weight of the battery to go with that, and the good thing about Lift MTB, it’s got a vast range of batteries raging from about 1.1 kilos up to 2.9 kilos. Which brings us to the Paradox Hermes. It’s the Greek made beautiful unit. €3000 euros for this system. But I can tell you, it is a very very well made unit. This too is a throttle only system. It’s 1200 watts nominal, and 130 Newton meters of torque. The battery is 744 watt hours, so that is actually pretty similar, it’s actually a bit more than the one on the new specialized Turbo Levo. And that goes into a backpack, and I think Alex at Paradox has got his own backpacks to go with that. And finally the Ego kit. Now the Ego kit is the
one that Martyn Ashton used when he rode down the World Cup Track at Fort William. And also when he went out to Whistler which was custom fitted
to his Canyon Sender. Now when it comes to Ego kits, there’s two kits available, and they are 2400 watts and 3400 watts. Now I’m just thinking, oh my God, that is just like massive. When you think that
the bikes that we ride, a specialized Turbo Levo
is 250 watt nominal. Now we look at the prices, €2999 or €3999. €2999 or €3999. The weight of the motor is 3.2 kilograms, but it’s 5.5 kilograms on the bike. That’s a significant amount of weight. The weight of the battery, 5.9 kilograms. So there’s a huge weight involved, like when I mentioned earlier, when you’ve got more power, there’s more weight which means there’s more drain on that battery. That’s all we’ve got. I think I’ve covered most things in simple terms, obviously there’s lots of detail and lots of other E-Bike motors on the market. I’m sure there will be comments below which remind me about these, but like I said, this is just a basic overview of after market E-Bike motors. But please, let us know your comments below, so we can get this conversation going about these retro kits, if you want to see more
about E-Bike motors, the custom E-Bike motors
which we use here on EMBN, check out this video here. Don’t forget, you can like, share and subscribe to EMBN to make sure we can keep these in depth videos coming. Thanks very much.

96 Replies to “Bolt On E-Bike Motors Explained | E-Bike Fundamentals”

  1. Thanks Stev I found that very interesting and it was great to see what other options there are out there thanks again ✌️.

  2. Why don't most e-bikers use e-downhill bikes? You'd think the only downside of a DH bike is pedaling, so with motor-assist it's a win-win…

  3. Thanks guys. The Lift MTB site has templates that you can print to check if the motor will fit your down tube arrangement. It’s really handy but, sadly for me…oh well, it’s time to turn my pedal-only bikes into wall ornaments.

  4. Brave touching this subject. A lot of folks on other forums get out of their trees – each have their favourite. Nicely coverered. Thank you.
    I just replaced my 1.5kW rear hub, with a BBSHD mid-drive for all the reasons you said.
    The hub was fast – 45mph+, but I wanted slower with oodles of off-road torque. Has an 830Wh battery. All of this was bundled onto a RockRider 500S. 😀
    When I finally sell my Whyte T130CRS later this year, going to go for one of the latest Specialized that I can afford.

  5. At last Steve I put together a Hardtail Vodoo Bantu with a rear hub drive for road and Fire trails as you call them and a Bafang mid drive on my Specialized Camber full suspension for more serious off road fun, both run from my 52v 21ah Samsung 35 E celled back pack battery good for almost 40 miles have 2 bikes for less than 2.5K will email pictures if you are interested ?

  6. Wow, Steve. Thank you! That is more than cool of EMBN! Well done.

    Thats a pretty good overview of options and does shine some light on various advantages and disadvantages of doing a retro fit. I would add that you can get a 750W Bafang kit on Amazon UK for 380GBP including a display and you can even fit that on a fatbike with an adapter if need be. You of course need to add the battery and you can always use a standard 600Wh 48V or similar with charger and integrated BMS (so its easy and safe to charge and balance automatically) on Amazon UK for 214GBP. So your total outlay except for the bike is around 600GBP. Now get a very decent second hand MTB or lets say a Calibre Bossnut fully for just under 1000GBP and you have a top notch bike.

    Is it as nice as a Haibike? Is it as light? Is it as well integrated in the frame? Of course not but the differences are really minute and not everybody can or will cough up 2000GBP for those.

    What was briefly touched upon in the video is the freedom you have to tune your motor controller to your liking. On the Bafang you can just plug in your USB cable and change every aspect of the controller, the starting power, the acceleration curve dependent on your cadence, etc. What is missing are the neat extras you have with eg. Specialized and their Mission Control app. That kind of integration for range calculation based on the route, etc. is very neat and is something I miss on my bike. The integrated torque sensor is another nice thing on the complete ebikes as this is also not standard on most conversions, they use cadence sensors only. This however is a minor issue as you can configure the power curves to fit to your riding style.

    So again, thanks Steve and now back to some emtb porn I can dream about!

  7. Great vid Steve…..very informative as usual . Not sure I’d like to be carrying those batteries on my back like your pal…….thank goodness I could afford a factory made E Mtb …….but fair play to all those folks who want to bolt a motor on

  8. I'm in the process of building a e bike with a bafang bbs01b motor which I paid about £380 for and then the battery a 36v 13amp/hour mounted onto the down tube which cost about £250.
    I have upgraded the brakes with 203mm do a discs up from 160mm and the hydraulic levers with electric cut off in place of the original cable brakes.
    With regards to chain line I have fitted a lekkie bling ring chain ring.
    Can't wait to get it finished and get out and ride it

  9. This video was spot on and alot of insight into the process of converting, costs and everything. Definitely thinking of doing this! Thanks Steve 👍😎

  10. I have a Bafand BBSHD installed on a Rocky Mountain Soul 20. The battery is a 20AmH Samsung triangle battery. With throttle assist it has a range of 70km and 160km with peddle assist.

  11. Thank, you for finally covering conversion motors! I've been waiting for this video for a long time. I can personally speak to the durability of the BBSHD, I've bashed mine on rocks and submerged it in creek crossings for months without failure. Built my own battery, which luckily hasn't exploded yet, likely due to safety features like cell-level fuses. I'm very glad for all the power, a Euro-legal bike wouldn't be able to plow though three feet of snow pushing a ski instead of a front wheel. I guess it's what you're gonna use it for that determines what power you need.

  12. I think it would be good to test viewers bikes, demo them, show the components, show the power outputs/rides against other viewers bikes. Try and relate more to the audience who want to try and build a setup. This way you wouldn't be comparing or stepping on your sponsors toes and people would get a larger view of e-biking and whats possible. Its no different really from showing Martin Ashtons bike and other styles of his setup.

  13. Again a great and thorough presentation of the various options. To carry the battery on my back …. no thank you. I sold my old bike and took a loan for a year that will end in April.

      I advise everyone to buy a dedicated e-bike as an old one, buy a 1 or 2 year old old-fashioned model in a store that is discounted but still excellent!

  14. Thanks and well done Steve. At least at a high level a pretty unbiased review. For people new to the subject you should prob have mentioned that the throttle only and above 25 km/h units can be considered illegal.
    On the other hand, in a lot of your interviews the big brand managers talk about adding power. It would be good journalism for an EMTB channel to report how much power these '250 Watt nominal' motors now actually produce.

  15. Thanks Steve, great video. As a follow up it would be great if you could cover more detail on what these motors are actually like to ride on the trail, as I get the impression they are less "intelligent" than integrated kit. For example the Bafang requires sensors on the brakes to cut the motor, which sounds like it could take some getting used to, so it would be good to know how a 250w bolt on (with battery on the frame) is a genuine alternative to an entry level hardtail emtb.

  16. There are other options for bb and if you choose a full suspension frame well the battery can fit nicely. Don't choose a frame that has a low lower downtube (most Giants for example) because the motor will be too low to the ground. A straight downtube is best like the orange shown. Transition is a good option.

  17. Annoying that my cycle to work scheme refuses to allow bikes over £1,000. Rules out any decent e-bikes. Does make me tempted to buy a decent non e-bike through the scheme and add a motor to it.

  18. Mid drives, mid drives, mid drives…… @5.43 Steve you mentioned that a hardtail allows you a "neat system"? You're right, but the example you used looked like a mad otter of a conversion. Please Check out My Instagram Https://www.instagram.com/likeher9 for a slightly tighter build. Pas, or throttle, or both together! cruise control, and regenerative braking With a 130mile range. Just an example of what can be achieved with a little care and attention, that's all!

  19. Love my Diamondback 27.5 hardtail with BBS02, I have over 5,000 miles on it. (Only 1 year old) btw, the throttle for sticky so I removed it, pedal assist only now and for 4,000 of that 5,000 miles.

  20. Interesting video, but I think they look a bit dated now and will probably mess with the geometry of the bike. I don't see the point with one of these, especially the £2000 + add on units, when I just bought a 2018 Focus Jam2, brand new for £2249, or you can buy a second hand Specialized Levo for about £2500 to £3000 on ebay.

  21. Great info about these bolt on mid-drive motor electric mountain bikes . It's what makes me hesitate with an real ebike. Still can't really decide! Now it would be good to do a test ride and gives us your point of view…
    Thanks

  22. Very educational. Just seems a bit messy all the wires hanging about. Also if you come off what's going to happen if your attached to the bike ? Rip the cable off or get tangled up with the bike.

  23. Can anyone see the elephant in the room here??! They are complete and utter junk !! Well done Steve , good job of remaining impartial when clearly you are thinking wtf?
    The beauty of the modern ebike is the technological integration of the the motors and the pedal assist systems. I am assuming anyone who uses any of these motors has not spent much time in a modern ebike , and the icing on the cake is the price of them.

    Not for me but each to their own 😎

  24. decent vid, so are you going to do a test, say bafang v proper ebike? Would be particularly interested in that, cause, well, it's what I've got! Agree with the assertion that they are only really worth doing if you've already got a bike. If you are going out to buy an ebike, just buy an ebike, buying a bike and a separate kit doesn't make alot of sense once you add up. I missed it if you mentioned, but I'd like to see a good comparison of the bafang cadence sensing, compared to torque sensing, defo interested to hear opinion on that.

  25. Awesome awesome video! Definitely go with the BBSHD. It's a perfect balance between simplicity, cost, and power. We run one to tow a heavy cargo trailer and it is a life saver!

  26. Great video Ste, but personally don't see the point in these given the price of them compared to the cost of emtb's now. I just bought a brand new Cannondale Moterra Lt 2 which has a RRP of £4499 for only £2500, nearly a 2 grand saving from Rutland cycling. So the people who keep saying emtb's are so expensive need to look again, 2500 would really only buy you a middle of the road full suspension or decent hardtail where as I've bought an emtb with a spec list not to be laughed at. Just my 2 pence worth.

  27. I’m a long time mountain biker and motorcyclist – just got my first factory ebike and like the fact that it is limited in speed and power so I have to put some effort in and don’t rip up the trails. Adding a 1500w motor with a throttle means you will be basically riding an electric motorbike on cycle trails – do we really want to be promoting these and potentially getting all ebikes banned?

  28. Maybe a mention that they are all illegal for use on the road in Europe
    and technically banned from most trail centres.
    You cant have a throttle above 4mph and you cant go above 15mphish.
    Power output is a very grey area because the legal bikes go well beyond 250W.
    Its evolving quickly and the law is rarely enforced, but you must remember that they could do you for riding an uninsured/untaxed/unregistered moped on the road.
    Keep to 15mph on the roads guys.

  29. Thanks for doing a vid on this. DIY motors are hated the same way by ebike guys the ebike guys themselves are hated by the mtb guys.

  30. Cant see them holding up well with repeated heavy use and the higher power units will have crap range but still very cool review thanks steve .

  31. Most after market mid drive motors have pedal assist or cadence sensors which is not as fluid pedaling . As you may get a burst of acceleration. Could be tricky on a trail. But with torque sensing it measures the force that the rider is applying to the pedals and these are on most upscale factory made e bikes. Something to check when you are buying a mid drive motor kit. I am just building a Bafang G510 mid drive e bike, which has torque sensing.

  32. Thank u embm , would love an ebike , but that cost thing… Good to see you exploring the cheaper alternative for us 99% . You mentioned a £600 bafung fit for a hard tail, some more dteailson this and the reason? thanks

  33. That's the hammer jonesy, embrace the diy and we work out the legality down the line long as its not a piss take 10kw jobby used on the roads.

  34. #ASKBMBN
    Hey EMBN, LOVE U GUYS SO MUCH… U WON'T BELIEVE IT…🖖😹
    I have my 2005?, Schwinn 26" full suspension hybrid that I am converting to electric. I did a lot of research… And I ended-up going for the BBSHD** FOR THE CUSTOMIZATIONS AND PART(TO MAKE IT UR OWN) SYSTEM with pedal assist and throttle, plus the ability to stay legal. So my question is, why don't u guys show case that specific motor with the with accessories for cheap?🖖😉 I can help!

  35. Running the Lift-MTB kit. Done almost 7000km with zero maintenance. Ran it on my Rocky Mountain Slayer, and now on a carbon Altitude. Slayer came in at 17.3kg with zero shortcuts on weight/performance. Hands down prefer it to any ebike option. Also really good on long rock gardens where you would like to smash trails at speed. Running a E13 9-44 cassette and 36 chainring up front. Easily reach 40-45km on the trails. I would not recommend this kit plugged in on tech fast trails unless you have proper bike skills. Everything happens at a MUCH faster pace. The bike also handles like a normal bike, and pops on par with a DH bike. But, in short, high speed and fat smiles all the way.

  36. One thing that does not get much attention is the weight of the rider and even your body wind resistance factor , this is significant imo .
    Some years ago i had a bit of a ride on a few occasions on my young brothers department store mountain bike which he fitted with an ebay bought rear 250 watt direct drive(non geared ) hub motor kit .
    We are both fairly big guys , and back then probably around 100 ish KG`s ( and now a tad more with middle aged spread 😉 ) , and i would say the ( 26" inch i think ) non suspension bike was about medium weight , not overly heavy .
    The punch line was that the hub motor was to use a phrase …. just weak as water , taking off without pedaling on the flat , you would be battling to eventually get up to 10 kph at a guess …… unless you had a tail wind , and even then it would take a while , and moderate hills even pedalling , forget it !
    I have since noted some of these 250 watt hub motors on sale with as little as 30 nm of torque (i suspect my brothers hub motor was one of these ) !
    Watts dont actually mean much , it is really torque that gets you moving off the line and up the hills (and gearing to a degree of course) .
    In a bike store local to me In Australia recently , in their E bike section , one particular electric mountain bike they are selling on the sales ticket quotes the motor torque (mid drive shimano electrics i think ) at 120 NM`s , this sounds pretty good to me .
    No doubt if you are a light weight , you could probably deal with less torque/power , but for us heavy dudes and dudett`s , imo a low torque set up is a waste of time .

  37. that lift mtb looks to be using an ancient almost 90s Currie /Izip chain drive . Lots of those old drives/hubs were over engineered , Super versatile , way powerful and fun for Decades . oh yeah and Dirt Cheap

  38. Great video!! It was a bit confusing at 5:26 when you pick up the Paradox bottom bracket and say "a lot of motors need 68/73 bottom bracket". I remember their FAQ looks like it says it fits any MTB bottom bracket: https://paradoxkinetics.com/faq/

  39. I have the lift mtb kit fitted to a trek remedy , I have recently purchased a specialized kenevo and prefer that , mainly due to the specialized being better for climbing technical stuff , but that's probably just down to the extra weight .
    I'll be selling the lift mtb kit shortly if anyone is interested .

  40. That's a proper walk through of bolt on kits 🙂
    Glad to see other options than the big brands being discussed. Great video!
    I got the Bafang BBSHD with a 17Ah battery on a Specialized Enduro

  41. Fame and fortune for local Ian Spoons! Great… Spoons guided me through building a Dartmoor hardtail 29er with a Bafang BBS02. I used lipo batteries from Hobby King. Fantastic fun for commuting on WyeValley/FoD single-track to work. After 10 rides I did realize it was going to rattle my brain to bits on the rough stuff, so a new full suspension build is now in progress…. enjoy!

  42. Steve, over 250w makes it fall outside a pedelec surely so therefore a motorbike. Therefore can’t be used on roads or other public places such as any bridleway etc.
    I run a Haibike Nduro and love it.

  43. Started with a BBS02 48V 20A which I ran for three years. I changed to a BBSHD 52V 32A about a year ago and also switched from a derrailuer to a Rohloff internal gear system.
    The factory programming on the Bafang is really awful. To get the most out of these motors you need to reprogram them with the custom cable. The difference is night and day. Once reprogrammed the bike feels more like a bike and less like an ebike. The great thing about the Bafang system is the level of customization. Up to nine different power levels, each one customizable. You can adjust the amount of pedal movement that activates the motor, the way the power ramps up and cuts off and of course the actual power level. I rode my first build, rather dissatisfied with the overall feel until I discovered the programming cable. After quite a bit of trial and error, I am now very happy with the feel. You do need to investigate this carefully because if you don't know what you're doing, you can wreck the controller.

  44. Another great and informative video.
    Im not sure if anyone can help or advice be with my problem, i Bought a Cannondale EMTB last year and stupidly kept the battery keys on the same key ring which i recently lost.
    I contacted the shop i bought the bike from and was told the key number should be on the paperwork that came with the bike failing that take the bike into my local bike shop and they will be able to get the key number via a bosch diagnostic.
    I could,nt find the key number on the paperwork and the bike shop told me my bike has the old system so no luck there and was told they had no experience of fitting new locks.
    I cant take the bike back to the store i bought it from as it was an on line purchase and the store is to far from my home.
    At the moment im charging the Battery on the bike but was looking to buy a spare battery for longer rides in the Summer .
    I just wondered what my options are, if i was able to drill the old lock would a new one be able to fit?

  45. Great video. Following you guys (eMTB) for quite a while now. In U.S. we have class 2 and 3 where Class 2 is pedelec only. Would love to see a Fazua retrofit.

  46. I odn't know how the laws are in the UK
    but you sohuld mention the laws
    the thing to remember is throttle will be illegal in several countries, like here in Norway, need licence plate & moped licence, and insurance.
    here the assist motor can't go over 0,25 kW.
    work and rent bikes for passengers nominal 0,5 kW max
    motor can have start up assistance at 6 km/h
    motor can go max to 25 Km/H
    as long as all of this is is correct you can ride a e bike everywhere in Norway.
    if not need license plate and can only ride on the road, cus considered a moped.
    Sourse: https://www.vegvesen.no/kjoretoy/Eie+og+vedlikeholde/elkjoretoy/elsykkel

  47. A shabby build and a lack of knowledge about doing a DIY mtb is a poor way to portray DIY. A mtb without the curved downtube is the best bike to use. many older DH bikes have geometry similar to todays trail bike and they are very durable. Leaving the wires of the motor hanging down and then showing twice is rude. i think most mtb riders do not use lipo and have a battery system that takes no time at the trail. That Lipo part was poor theatre. BBSHD is easily programmable. Instant motor stop when you stop pedaling can be programmed. Lower levels of PAS can be programmed so it is more natural. When geared correctly and programmed correctly it is most of the time never past the max wattage area of the factory bike. But it does have the power when needed. The throttle is easily removed to conform with local riding laws. if you are going to do a bolton thing, do it right next time and don't misrepresent what most of us do.

  48. Great overview thanks, yeah just to clarify.. bb kits do come in different sizes, there was no mention of the cyc 3000w x1 pro on this video, it's on par with plugin motors weight. Smaller ,the same price as a bbshd , a better build quality then the Paradox and ego system but at least half the cost.. these motors will be available in torque sensing also throttle and pas.. also a new type of pas that is grade sensitive..it knows the hill angle and adjusts the power accordingly.. the cyc will fit any bike that you like as long as its strong enough to cope with the 180mn of torque you are good to go..
    You wait and see cyc will slash the current price of these kits and improve the performance also ..

  49. BBSHD 160NM 1500 watts. I love 30 amp motor off road and don't like the weedy BBS02. I prefer power to light weight as it's more like a motor x. Standing on the pedals gives more control and throttle gives more balance.

  50. In the end, it´s simple: When you have a nice bike which is to good to be thrown in the bin and you want to go electric, just make sure:- Will the motor and battery and battery fit into the frame (this is the essential question)?- Will the chainline be acceptable? Remember, smallest chainring with offset for the Bafang BBS is 38, you may need    a 11-46 or 50 rear Cassette incl. the long derailleur, or you need to go for adaptors using standard 32 chainrings worsening   the chainline (can be eliminated by blocking slowest gear)- Can you accept inferior motor steer compared to Bosch or Shimano etc.. I´ve spent hours on fine-tuning the Bafang with   good results but torque sensors do a better job, believe me or not.The Tongsheng motor has torque sensing, but this is to sensitive for fat and strong rider, it goes to max power too quickly.Tongsheng has a stock 42 chainring which works good with 11-46.Both the Bafang and the Tongsheng reduce the ground clearance, so check wether this ok or not.Buying the motor in China is no longer a good option because european dealers offer the same product for only 20 % more. China is a good place to buy rear Cassette (11-50 for 32 € on "wish.com" incl. shipping) and spare parts.

  51. That's what I should of done instead of getting a rip job from a shop ! Volt  Australia !buyer beware rip !

  52. I had a BBSHD which ran at 1000 watts. With an upgrade of the controller it's now up to 2500 watts with NO WEIGHT GAIN! More power isn't necessarily heavier.

  53. Always thought it’s pretty silly idea sticking battery’s in your back pack, should you be unlucky enough to come off , and roll on to your back it could do some serious damage to your spine ,

  54. Thanks great video, very informative. I think you should mention a bit about the legality of these kits on public land, yes I know no-one checks or polices these things, but if you hit some-one on an illegal bike, prepare to be sued big style.
    I have a Bafang conversion as well as a hub conversion, and both have been fantastic, I have been a mountain biker for 25 years, and these kits allow me to continue the sport.

  55. This is the video I've been waiting for. Can you do another where you cover other options and maybe fit one. I know you won't be teaching electrics / electronics in it, but would be good to see it done. Ya got some shock when that battery unti connected, what??? 🤣😂

  56. Well done guys, nice to see you tackle this DIY option. Funny how many different bike groups take turns being the black sheep of the cycling world. DIY e-bikes, manufactured e-bikes, 29ers, plus size tires, full suspension, etc., etc., etc.

  57. Many thanks for doing this review. I think the Bafang outsells all the rest by quite a margin. However the only Bolt on mid-drive, that I know of, that has Torque Sensing is the TONGSHENG TSDZ2. Torque sensing is what makes ebikes feel natural and fun. The TSDZ2 is much nicer to ride than the Bafang, in my opinion and a little cheaper.

  58. Thanks for a very complete motor comparison. Just now shopping for a hunting e-mountain bike.
    Here in the US I can buy a 750 watt BAFANG mid mount motor e- bike for $4,000.+ This is a COMPLETE E- BIKE, not a bolt-on. I mention this for price comparisons only. I plan to use it for hunting in Nevada's mountains. Hey, I'm a geezer and need the assist of an e-bike since I loath the noise and stink of motorized "quad" ATVs.
    And yes, I need the low end power to haul 40 pounds of camping gear, scoped rifle and 100 pounds of boned-out deer or elk meat. That could easily be over 300 lbs. so a bike trailer may be in my future as well.

  59. Is there any more info/videos of spoons 224 anywhere?. I have one and i am very interested in converting it. Great vid by the way

  60. Brilliant Video. Though i'm just coming across it now and have already seen the series of video posted by EMBN on the EURO Bike expo,
    it would be really good to hear your thoughts on the ' Pendix eDrive' from the Netherlands (manufactured in Germany).
    Thanks again.

  61. Would love it if you do a proper review on the the KirbEbike Vapour self build kit? It claims to be a top of the range bike for £4 k or lower quality parts for £3K.
    As most e mountain bikes are prohibitively expensive for most folk it would great to hear what you have to say.

  62. I have a Specialized cross trail. I want to put a Luna cycle kit on it. With LUNAa best 52v battery and 1000 +/- watt Bafang motor maxed out, it is $1800 dollars (not including the $500 bike) so roughly $2300 total but I can get a slightly lesser kit without much sacrifice for $1300 + 500 making it $1800. Of course I will constantly upgrade but it gets me on a really powerful bike pretty cheap and I can upgrade as time and money allows.

  63. I can understand the conversion cost using the Bafang (I have the BBSHD kit) or Lift kits, but when you start looking at the 3000 euros plus for the kit without a bike, why wouldn't you go for a new out of the box ebike?

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